CreditForum.org forum offline due to license dispute with vBulletin Pirate Hunter
This is one of the more bizarre events of the year.
The summary of what transpired:
I *purchased* a license for vB several years ago. I thought that this license would never expire. I did however have to pay $30/year in order to get support and updates. I CLOSED http://www.creditforum.org/ last year to new questions, and a month or two ago I finally turned off registration because too many people submitted questions instead of contributions. My vB support subscription expired in 4/04.
I thought that there had to be a few people who weren’t just interested in improving their credit so they could buy more crap they don’t need. I installed a new vB at http://www.fight-back.us/forum/ and decided to try this. And, there actually were a couple people who actively participated and took actions to fight back.
However, I’ve been so busy with my suits and converting this blog to ExpressionEngine, I never even added a logo, the site still has the vB logo as of today.
Last weekend I tried to fix a few things, couldn’t get it done, and I decided to pay vB another $30 so I could download the latest bug fixes. I noticed that the e-mail associated with my license was disabled, and I submitted a request for the update of my e-mail prior to subscribing, so that I would get the e-mail with the receipt.
As of today, I received no response from vB support and the e-mail listed with my license is STILL the old no longer active address.
Howard G. Spinks - the obnoxious PIRATE HUNTER
Monday night I received an e-mail from Howard G Spinks about having to register the URL for creditforum.org. It took me a while to realize that he was not responding to my request for the e-mail change - which I obviously had been waiting for.
So I updated the URL at vBulletin and wrote to him that creditforum.org was CLOSED and that I was starting another forum, but that I wasn’t going to buy a 2nd license:
“Tell you what, instead of renewing, I’ll apply the $30 towards the purchase of other software or maybe I’ll use free forum software.”
So he found the fight-back.us forum and his reply was:
“Therefore in your case you need another license or to remove the forum.”
NOTE: He did NOT suggest combining the forums.
And:
“What you appear to be doing is using my clients software for free advertising? I say that on the presumption your other forum is now the one you use but have not registered as required by the Terms and Conditions of use.”
Is Howard Spinks so dimwitted it hurts?
“Free advertising” - oh yeah!!!!! Look at all these ads at my sites!
Then he wrote:
“You have failed to follow a request to remove your additional unlicensed forum and I am going to speak with my client and suggest one of two options.
Closure of your second forum only due to copyright theft.
Revocation of your license due to terms and conditions abuse and closure of both your forums.”
I had less than a day since his notification, and today is day 2 and I now closed CreditForum.org.
I conclude that you’re best off never purchasing anything from vB.
The idiot who pays (like me) may just lose their $160 license!
I wrote:
“In the meantime, I can just run one board, just make new topics, and everybody will see what scum vB is. Extra work for me - a lot less money for you. I’m not talking about the $30, I’m talking about the new licenses you do NOT sell.
Please forward this message to the vB “decision makers” so I don’t have to post retractions. I’ll wait 3 days.”
Spinks replied:
“Don’t threaten me or my client. The only basis for your complaint seems to be you got caught out using my clients software illegally.
Post that if you dare. Someone may read it even though your visitor count is very insignificant.” [emphasis added]
If there was a law against stupidity, Spinks would never get out of jail.
More important:
Why does vB charge existing customers $160 for sites that are CLOSED and have a “very insignificant” visitor count?
Most of their competitors have free versions and most important, special pricing for non commercial and non profit sites. Greed, greed and more greed ....
Today I got a mail from the vBulletin Licensing Department, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd, notably lacking the name of the person who wrote it. As a matter of fact, the author advised that s/he wrote last night, but since there was no name on the e-mail, I thought it was from Spinks.
From today’s vB/Jelsoft mail:
“I am sorry that this issue has generated such animosity, but the simple truth is that it is a violation of the license agreement to continue running a forum that was purchased on a leased license that has expired. It does not matter that the forum is closed to new posts. The fact that it is still accessible and can be read indicates the software is still being used.”
I don’t understand how I purchased a leased licence that expired. I PURCHASED a license, I did NOT lease it!!!!
The unidentified author of the email from the vBulletin Licensing Department, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd wrote:
“Nonetheless if this forum is being kept open as a temporary situation, then I don’t see any reason why we can’t accommodate this.”
That’s what I expected in the first Spinks mail, since the vB owners are so obsessed with profits that they can’t give a a free license for a little non profit site with practically no traffic to an EXISTING paying customer.
However, at this time, that’s too little, too late. I rather close the CreditForum right now, I OWN my license, I will USE my license, and I am posting what happened so that readers will decide NOT to purchase vBulletin.
“Can you please tell me what your plans are for this expired forum?”
I’m obviously confused about the expired part, but if s/he read my correspondence with Spinks, I was as clear about my plans as could be, considering that I’ve only had since Monday night to even think about this.
First I wrote:
“Tell you what, instead of renewing, I’ll apply the $30 towards the purchase of other software or maybe I’ll use free forum software.”
And in my next e-mail:
“And it so happens that ExpressionEngine is going to release a forum module, so I will probably use that. The only advertising at any of my sites are the links to the software I utilize, including vB, you fool!
In the meantime, I can just run one board, just make new topics, and everybody will see what scum vB is. Extra work for me - a lot less money for you. I’m not talking about the $30, I’m talking about the new licenses you do NOT sell.”
Today I looked at my install notes from a month ago, I found link to a thread at vB announcing that 2 boards could be combined and apparently my original plan was to just see what to do with the Fight Back! forum and then merge the two forums if I decided to stay with vB. After wasting some time at the vB site today, it turned out that the import script is only available to customers who paid their $30 for updates.
NOTE:
Nowhere in my correspondence with Spinks and the vB Licensing anonymous e-mail did anyone offer the FREE solution to merge the boards.
This could have been so simple, but they chose to be obnoxious morons. Well, it’s the greed factor.
Spinks also wrote:
“Your immature ranting fit will not stop any sane minded person using my client’s software as it is the market leader. [emphasis added] If your site is allowed to remain and you do make spurious allegations your current license will be immediately cancelled with no refund and I will have your forum closed altogether without further communication.”
I’m accepting Spinks’ challenge.
This should be interesting. I own a license and I’m using it for exactly one installation. I’m also letting the world know that vB - Jelsoft is obsessed with profits.
Do they hack peoples’ sites? To they break into servers? Is there a mechanism in vB that allows vB to destroy the site?
How many people have they sued? I’d like to read some of these filings.
This is what should be in the press release, some details about the vB pirate persecution program. Then again, I may have to send out the press release to get some answers from the people who were the subjects of the vB pirate hunt.
How many pirates bought a license after Spinks tracked them down?
How many customers did what I’m doing and gave vB nothing but the finger and bad PR?
Am I the first person to not put up with Spinks’ obnoxious demands?
Of course I can’t force vB to provide any information, and I can’t even get the e-mails for the people in charge, apparently not available to the general public:
Software Developed By Jelsoft Enterprises Limited
Product Manager: Kier Darby, John Percival
Business Development: James Limm, Ashley Busby
Software Development: Kier Darby, Freddie Bingham, Scott MacVicar, Mike Sullivan, Jerry Hutchings
Graphics Development: Kier Darby, Fabio Passaro
Maybe they’ll do a Google for their names some day and find this posting. Their friends and neighbors will find out how they do business - and that’s of course the purpose.
Why do vB - Jelsoft approve of morons like Spinks harassing their PAYING customers?
From http://www.piratereports.com/ , apparently owned by Spinks: “Put our PR into your anti-piracy strategy.” PR? It certainly doesn’t stand for Public Relations.
I was sure that Spinks is a high school kid with low self esteem, but it turns out that he’s a former cop. BTW, they’re British, yet no different from any American CRA or bank or any other business concerned with nothing but profits. As greedy as any corporation and determined to enforce the “license.”
My thoughts on paying for software
In 97 or 98 I sent an e-mail to Bill Gates to let him know that I’d never pay for another MicroSoft product and that I was running a pirate copy of Windows. I had purchased Frontpage 97 and that was one of my worst software choices ever. Bill didn’t reply. And unfortunately, I did send MS more of my few $$$, most recently for XP Pro.
I do believe that well functioning software should be paid for and software is my largest expense after web hosting, phones and internet access. I’ve been burned quite a bit, mostly because support was lousy. I try shareware, if it works good, I pay for it. And that’s a choice I make, because I do know how to get and install cracks.
vB is the self proclaimed “market leader” and acts accordingly by displaying the MicroSoft attitude. I don’t like it.
Why I decided to take CreditForum.org off-line.
It was a tough decision. This forum contains by far the best credit and credit scoring information available. Despite the condescending Spinks remarks about the low traffic, some postings were read over 10,000 times. Many people got their checks from creditors and CRAs, and if they’d sent me just 10% of their settlements I’d be debt free and I’m sure I would have bought a license before I even installed the Fight Back! Forum.
However, the greed of those how enjoyed my knowledge free of charge cannot be used to reason that nobody should be able to read the CreditForum. A few times some people did send a donation, strangely, often the ones who could least afford it. And I know that many readers are extremely poor, I’ve gotten e-mails from so many readers on disability, sick, in pain .... I would never expect them to send money.
It’s too bad I can’t have a “detector” that tells me who deserves free access and who doesn’t. But innocent until proven guilty is a concept I believe in and I will reopen CreditForum hopefully within a few weeks. There are so many options, I just need some time to look into alternatives. I may well move the Fight Back! Forum on a different platform or simply repost the postings at CreditForum on a slow night and run both forums under one install.
As I’m writing this, I got e-mail from a reader who’d like a separate topic at http://www.fight-back.us/forum/ for the TU Priority Department.
When you can’t do (and afford) everything, you just have to decide what’s most important. And I’m at the point where I’m tired of trying to help literally millions of people, which I obviously can’t do. Instead, I focus on CHANGING things so that fewer people will get hurt in the future.
UPDATE 6/24/04: It was Steve Machol who was the anonymous vB/Jelsoft author and he sent me an e-mail today starting with
“Christine,
Then honestly I’m not sure what this is all about.”
Don’t know which words he doesn’t understand. Of course I had invited him and Spinks to post right here, but obviously they haven’t done so.
A very typical posting by license enforcer Smachol is at http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/showthread.php?t=49957 You can see for yourself how they did NOTHING to assist people who requested help with merging boards to avoid having to pay for two licenses. A leased license is $85 per YEAR!!!!!!!
While vB has had import scripts for many COMPETITORS products for years, they resisted the MANY user requests for a way to combine boards until a few months ago. That shows the extent of the vB/Jelsoft greed.
I don’t go for cramdown sales.
Posted by Christine on 06/23/2004 at 05:53 PM
Admin & tech stuff • Credit - Collection - Economic News • (14) Comments • Permalink
I am read you place as credit hard for me. You is rude to peple and make problem to solve.
No one like you just information. You close site for no one post. No surprise for me
Mawarid is obviously in favor of keeping creditforum.org closed.
Less work for me.
I have followed your personal crusades for some time as you appear to really enjoy causing problems and then making yourself out to be a hero for solving them.
Learning from your many legal errors has been helpful but I note that when you loose you hurl a tirade of abuse at the individuals who have done what they are paid to do (indicating the two female Attorneys whose pictures you posted along with insults). Sometimes rules are rules and thats just it. The world does not owe you a living.
You dont even seem to have an enjoyable or finacially secure life as a result.
How can you lead such a negative existance.
So you enjoy a day out in the small claims court which is fine but if you dont win (as often is the case)and spend more in time and money dealing with the matter than you collect in fees(which obviously makes you very rude and grumpy) what is the point. Time is money after all.
Medically I expect you are shortening your life with stress etc.
The world is not just but if you made a few less problems by your attitude then you would find that most things could be sorted out amicabley.
I think people did not post to your forum because it was more an information source and for me also an entertainment source.
I do see the funny side of life even in cases of adversity.
Feel free to post some smart arse response and have a hissy fit if you wish as your readers will expect it.
What a strange posting.
“I have followed your personal crusades for some time as you appear to really enjoy causing problems and then making yourself out to be a hero for solving them.”
It’s probably both genetics and how I was raised, but I *LIVE* to *SOLVE* problems. So sorry this bothers you.
“Learning from your many legal errors has been helpful”
Please send a donation!
“but I note that when you loose you hurl a tirade of abuse at the individuals who have done what they are paid to do (indicating the two female Attorneys whose pictures you posted along with insults). Sometimes rules are rules and thats just it. The world does not owe you a living.”
I don’t know what the world owing me a living has to do with these despicable human beings who defend these criminals who lie and defraud the general public.
These liars (lawyers) are no different than Saddam’s henchmen and women.
Human beings DIE!!!!!
Nobody is holding a gun to those liars’ heads or threatening to hurt their family if they quit those miserable jobs. Corporate America could not get away with exploiting at least 50 million Americans if they didn’t have their liar henchmen and women.
I’m not threatening these lawyers, I’m not protesting in front of their house or office - what I do is next to nothing. Here’s what I’d LIKE to do, but obviously I don’t have time: http://creditsuit.org/credit.php?/blog/terrorist_or_activist/
All I do is make sure that their friends and relatives can find out what they do for a living.
Does the term accountability mean something to you? Being responsible for your actions?
Why is your God the dollar?
Do you really think you live only once?
“You dont even seem to have an enjoyable or finacially secure life as a result. “
I’m so poor that Trans Union filed a motion for me to post a bond for their legal fees. Didn’t you read that?
Money is important, to a certain extent, but not very important. You can’t take it with you.
“How can you lead such a negative existance.”
What negative existence? Didn’t you read my posting about “moving mountains?”
Didn’t you read the court order I posted yesterday? If you can’t handle 23 pages, just read the summary on the last 5 pages.
And you’re just not with it! Sure, it sucks to see the vB/Jelsoft attitude, but heck, the good news is this is costing them some serious money. And that’s how they’ll learn.
Already I found the Inovision Board, IPB, with so much better license terms! And a vB importer: http://creditsuit.org/credit.php?/blog/feedback_on_invision_power_board_ipb/
Aside from the many free forums, that’s an alternative for people looking for better license terms and support. I identified a problem, and now I’m working on finding solutions.
“So you enjoy a day out in the small claims court which is fine”
Are you a little dimwitted? Either that, or you haven’t read a single filing.
“but if you dont win (as often is the case)and spend more in time and money dealing with the matter than you collect in fees(which obviously makes you very rude and grumpy) what is the point. Time is money after all.”
Money money money!!!!! Praise the money!
What’s the name of your church? “bank”?
“Medically I expect you are shortening your life with stress etc.”
Tell me about it. It’s taking a physical toll to. But what’s the worry? Got thousands more lives to go, hmm, well, with any luck only hundreds. Actually, I believe the good times happen after what we refer to as “death.”
But I’m hoping that I’ll get done with the suits in a year or so and I’ll be sipping margaritas in Mexico or Nicaragua for a while. And hopefully I’ll find something more satisfying to do there, helping the locals, growing my own food, spending more time on spiritual development.
“The world is not just but if you made a few less problems by your attitude then you would find that most things could be sorted out amicabley.”
I’m sure open to some practical examples. How did you make Earth a better planet?
Could you post a couple of URLs documenting your method?
“I think people did not post to your forum because it was more an information source and for me also an entertainment source.”
Sorry, I’m not following you. Which forum?
“I do see the funny side of life even in cases of adversity.”
Me too. I got a good laugh out of the 9/11 trailer and the masturbating judge.
And your posting is mildly funny, considering that you know absolutely nothing about any of my sites and it looks like you’re a vB employee. Yup, mildly funny.
“Feel free to post some smart arse response and have a hissy fit if you wish as your readers will expect it.”
You are so very gracious to allow me to respond.
If everybody was as generous as you, this certainly would be a better planet!!
Oh, and what’s your full name and where do you work? 
“Janet” submitted a couple more comments with some of the dumbest statements I’ve seen in a while.
So I deleted those comments and I am hereby revoking “Janet’s” () posting privileges.
Future submissions or e-mails are subject to the $50 handling/deletion fee.
I’m looking for *intelligent* life and constructive comments. If you have NOTHING to contribute, don’t post here!
I dont agree with your suggestion that ppl should use Invision. Its a vb clone with a minimal market from ppl like you who want a second rate board on the cheap.
Its cheaper coz its not as good. (Read the independant reports). Simple.
For ppl who want a good board your advice is crap and misleading.
My advice is get a cheap free board (all u need)or use one without a license till you get caught (u tried that) or buy vb.
You need to do some propper checking lady.
Stick to credit coz you are good at than and your advice helped me.
TX 4 that.
I much prefer smaller companies who [still] value my business. This is NO different than dealing with a bank.
As I said, vB has the Microsoft attitude. And IPB has the kind of license vB SHOULD have.
MT just had a MAJOR PR problem over its new license for 3.0, and after a month of customers moving to competitors, MT CHANGED its licensing to provide free personal use.
http://www.sixapart.com/log/2004/06/announcing_pric.shtml
I moved too. I used MT for this blog since last July and I donated the $40 for support. But I sure as hell wasn’t going to pay them for 3.0 - not only because it wasn’t worth it, but because they mislead everybody and I just don’t go for cramdown sales.
So I spent $145 on ExpressionEngine, a brandnew product with excellent support.
You seem to think that vB is the best forum software, and I have to say that it is good for “chat” forums, but totally unusable for a board like http://forum.creditcourt.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.pl—I have yet to find anything better than Discus Pro for a resource board, although I haven’t been looking in the last year or two.
It’s extremely difficult to organize anything in vB, I don’t think you CAN manually sort threads.
I don’t care for the vB CP either. And why do you think I wanted to pay the $30 for the updates and support?
It has problems. The e-mail notifications included the entire post. Not good, since I edit so much. That must have been part of the “upgrade” to 3.0.
It would have been nice if you had posted some URLs to reviews of IPB 2.0 - they’re just about done with the beta testing.
And almost forgot to mention, vB has no SPELL CHECKER!!!! Despite many requests from users, the developers simply didn’t care. When I bought vB, I thought that a spell checker is standard and vB even had an option to activate spell check in the CP. However, vB is for kids and chat and not a business tool.
I saw a reference to spell check at IPB, and I’d be thrilled to have a spell checker again.
I’ve been using computers since the early 80s and I’ve helped a lot of people over the years deciding what software to use.
Just like with credit, it’s important to ask what the user wants to accomplish. You don’t seem to know enough about forum or any software to ask about my intended use.
I don’t need sigs and pictures and all that crap. vB worked for me kindof, but it’s far from perfect for my needs. My perfect software would be Discus with the vB WYSIWYG editor and ease of thread admin.
I looked at the vB licensing policy to see whether I can sell my license, since so many people think it’s so great, it should have some resale value. But I read that I need their *permisssion.* Hmmm, that really sucks. When I OWN something, I shouldn’t need ANYONE’s permission to sell it.
What the heck?
I agree with the last poster.
I know you are pissed with vB but you are trying to justify your opinion which is not in line with the main stream.
EV1, & Tiscali to name just 2 major ISP’s use VB.
How can you say it is not a business tool.
Invison is a new contender who has replicated vb and has not yet convinced any major group to use it.
Lets not forget that WHEN IT WAS FREE it gained a lot of ex vb customers.
Anyone can loose money on a start up business that is easy.
I would tell people to use a free one or use the best and that is still vb.
If it wasnt why does Invision look more an more like it by the day and why does it need to be cheaper as vb is making a healthy profit at its prices for sure.
You are only saving the cost difference not the full fee so it’s a few $
When you are an EXPERT on forum software as you appear to be on debt then give an opinion and review them all.
Until then you are just a woman scorned looking for the last word.
I apologize, my sites, ideology and activism are not “mainstream.” I suggest you start frequenting the about 55 billion mainstream sites.
If I’m not qualified to post the vB shortfalls, who is?
After all, I have been personally administrating at least one forum since 1996 or 97 and I ran both Discus and vB for several years side by side.
Fact: vB has numerous problems, as outlined above.
Neither Dave nor Chuck did anything but praise vB, they did not provide a link to any review, to download sites for free software, etc. etc.
From now on I will delete all comments lacking substance and apparently posted by vB employees.
Well done Christine dont let them p**S on you like they always have done, they had no right. Well done 
Keep up the good work.
I know you are pissed with vB but you are trying to justify your opinion which is not in line with the main stream.
EV1, & Tiscali to name just 2 major ISP’s use VB.
How can you say it is not a business tool.
OMG, I’m not in line with the “main stream!”
That’s just HORRIBLE. PLEASE forgive me!
vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT! vB is GREAT!
Are you going to allow me to live?
I repent!
Just as I’m installing phpBB 3 and it was looking pretty good.
My heart goes out to you and anybody else who’s had the misfortune of having to deal with Steve Machol, whose contempt for, and rudeness toward, vBulletin customers is legendary. Putting Machol in charge of customer service is like putting Andy Dick in charge of public relations.
My advice to people considering buying a vBulletin license is don’t. It’s overpriced, and technical help for anything apart from minor customization is virtually non-existent.
It’s amazing how many people find this post and I’m glad you did, David.
I’ve been very happy with phpBB 3 and started using the entirely free WordPress self hosted blog a few months ago. I can’t stop raving about WP. It is incredible that entirely FREE software can be so great and I get better support than for paid software.
Before I switched to WP, I paid Movable Type $150 and got nothing worth using. That outfit ought to be the dictionary definition of ripoff. MT self hosted totally sucks. And they didn’t even have a support forum.
A week ago I started using Drupal at http://trado.info/ and I must admit, I’m still struggling with it. But I MUCH prefer to pay some people to help me or I donate a few bucks here and there and support open source software.
MT wanted $3,000 for their “community software”, something like Drupal. They’re completely out of their mind.
Well, that’s my rant for the day. I’m hoping that many people will use their Trados to support open source software development and bypass outfits like vB and MT.
Power to the People!
